Xinhua’s Dueling Interviews w/Lavrov and Kuleba
More of the same – but not meaningless
Xinhua hosted back-to-back interviews with the Russian and Ukrainian Foreign Ministers on Saturday, April 30th. Xinhua’s interview with Russian Foreign Minister Sergev Lavrov took place at “08:00:17” (presumably Beijing time), while its exchange with Ukrainian Minister of Foreign Affairs Dmytro Kuleba occurred at “9:02:55” (again, presumably Beijing time).
Although the purposes of the dueling interviews aren’t clear, it doesn’t mean they are devoid of meaning, either. The PRC may have held the dueling interviews to encourage Putin to wrap up the conflict, while Moscow may have been irritated to implicitly debate with Kyiv. On the other hand, Xinhua may have (oddly) hinted that it kept the Ukrainian Foreign Minister on hold for several minutes. Beijing has a history of instrumentalizing ambiguity and, as Perry Link wrote two decades ago, letting “you yourself decide” which actions should be avoided, lest you upset the CCP’s interests.
The dueling interviews do not, at least not by themselves, suggest any imminent changes to Chinese foreign policy. While Beijing appears increasingly uncomfortable with the economic consequences of the invasion and shows no indication it will supply Moscow with substantive military or commercial assistance, it also appears likely to continue its “Pro-Russia neutrality,” at least rhetorically.
There’s only one section in today’s edition. The Report will be back tomorrow.
Dueling Interviews
Comment: The Russian MFA posted an English-language version below. Note the aligning time stamps on the Russian and Chinese readouts.
Xinhua: What do you think is at the root of the Ukrainian crisis? What can the international community do to solve this problem?
Sergey Lavrov: When we talk about the Ukrainian crisis, first of all we need to look at the destructive policy of the Western states conducted over many years and led by the United States, which set a course to knock together a unipolar world order after the end of the Cold War.
[Comment: Lavrov continued on like this for several paragraphs]
Xinhua: What measures has Russia taken to protect the lives and property of civilians? What efforts has it made to establish humanitarian corridors?
Sergey Lavrov: As I mentioned earlier, the special military operation is proceeding according to plan. Under this plan, the Russian military personnel are doing everything in their power to avoid victims among civilians. Blows are carried out with high-precision weapons, first of all at military infrastructure facilities and places where armoured vehicles are concentrated. Unlike the Ukrainian army and nationalist armed groups that use people as living shields, the Russian army provides the locals with all kinds of assistance and support.
Humanitarian corridors open daily from Kharkov and Mariupol to evacuate people from dangerous districts, but the Kiev regime demands that the “national battalions” in control of those areas do not release the civilians. Nevertheless, many are able to leave with the assistance of Russian, DPR and LPR servicemen. During the special military operation, the hotline of the Interdepartmental Coordination Headquarters of the Russian Federation for Humanitarian Response in Ukraine has received requests for assistance in evacuating 2.8 million people to Russia, including 16,000 foreign citizens and employees of UN and OSCE international missions. In total, 1.02 million people have been evacuated from Ukraine, the DPR and LPR, of which over 120,000 are citizens of third countries, including over 300 Chinese nationals. There are over 9,500 temporary accommodation facilities operating in Russian regions. They have space for rest and hot meals, and everything that may be necessary. Newly arrived refugees are provided with qualified medical and psychological assistance.
Russia is taking measures to ensure civilian navigation in the Black and Azov seas. A humanitarian corridor opens daily, a safe lane for ships. However, Ukraine continues to block foreign ships, creating a threat of shelling in its internal waters and territorial sea. Moreover, Ukrainian naval units have mined the shore, the ports and territorial waters. These explosive devices disconnect from their anchor lines and drift into the open sea, so they pose a serious danger to both the fleets and the port infrastructure of the Black Sea countries.
Xinhua: Since the special military operation was launched in Ukraine, Western counties have adopted a large number of unprecedented sanctions against Moscow. How do you think these sanctions will affect Russia? What are the main countermeasures taken by Russia? Some say that a new Cold War has begun. How would you comment on that?
Sergey Lavrov: It is true that the special military operation was used by the collective West as a pretext to unleash numerous restrictions against Russia, as well as its legal entities and individuals. The United States, Great Britain, Canada and EU countries do not conceal that their goal is to strangle our economy by undermining its competitiveness and blocking Russia’s progressive development. At the same time, the Western ruling circles are not embarrassed by the fact that anti-Russian sanctions are already beginning to harm ordinary people in their own countries. I mean the declining economic trends in the United States and many European countries, including growing inflation and unemployment.
Xinhua: Russian-Ukrainian talks have attracted close attention of the international community. What are the main obstacles to the talks today? How do you regard the prospects of a peace treaty between the two parties? What kind of bilateral relations does Russia intend to have with Ukraine in the future?
Sergey Lavrov: At present the Russian and Ukrainian delegations are holding discussions on the possible draft almost daily, via videoconference. This document should contain such elements of the post-conflict situation as permanent neutrality, the non-nuclear, non-bloc and demilitarised status of Ukraine, as well as guarantees of its security. The agenda of the talks also includes denazification, recognition of the new geopolitical reality, the lifting of sanctions and the status of the Russian language, among other things. Settling the situation in Ukraine will make a significant contribution to the de-escalation of the military and political tensions in Europe and the world in general. The establishment of an institution of guarantor states is envisaged as a possible option. First of all, they will be the permanent members of the UN Security Council, including Russia and China. We share information on the progress in the talks with Chinese diplomats. We are grateful to Beijing and other BRICS partners for their balanced position on the Ukrainian issue.
We are in favour of continuing the talks, although the process is difficult.
You are right to ask about the obstacles. For example, they include the militant rhetoric and incendiary actions of Kiev’s Western patrons. They are actually encouraging Kiev to “fight to the last Ukrainian,” pumping the country with weapons and sending mercenaries there. Let me note that the Ukrainian security services staged a crude bloody provocation in Bucha with the help of the West, to complicate the negotiation process among other things.
I am confident that agreements can only be reached when Kiev starts to be guided by the interests of the Ukrainian people, and not the advisors from far away.
Speaking about Russian-Ukrainian relations, Russia is interested in a peaceful, free, neutral, prosperous and friendly Ukraine. Despite the current administration’s anti-Russian course, we remember the many centuries of all-embracing cultural, spiritual, economic and family ties between Russians and Ukrainians. We will definitely restore these ties.
Comment: I didn’t notice any substantial differences between the Chinese-language text and the Russian MFA’s (English-language) readout. Interestingly, unlike his Ukrainian counterpart, Lavrov never acknowledged or addressed the questioner.
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba gives an exclusive interview – Xinhua News Agency [Chinese-language] April 30, 2022 09:02:55 [Machine translated, mostly]
Xinhua: The situation in Ukraine has developed to this point, which the Chinese side does not want to see. China believes that the Ukrainian crisis reflects European security issues, and Ukraine should become a bridge for communication between the East and the West, rather than the frontier of major power confrontation. China advocates equal dialogue among all countries, adheres to the concept of indivisibility of security, and ultimately forms a balanced, effective and sustainable European security mechanism. Do you have any suggestions for realizing long-term stability in Ukraine and Europe and building a European security mechanism that meets the vital interests of European countries?
Kuleba: Your question involves several interesting topics at the same time, and I would like to comment on it.
We also believe that this war is not in China's interests. The global food crisis and economic problems caused by Russia's invasion of my country's territory will pose a serious threat to China's economy. I believe your experts have thoroughly researched this threat. [Comment: Kuleba – wisely, in my view – tries to persuade Beijing by appealing to its interests, not any shared values.]
Every country, including China, wants global stability. After all, international trade and connections between people can only develop better when they are stable. Stability is the guarantee of successful implementation of global projects, such as the "Belt and Road" initiative proposed by Chinese leaders. Russia has already compromised this initiative.
Second, the current crisis does reflect European security concerns. Russia's temporary occupation of Crimea and parts of Donetsk and Luhansk in 2014 not only violated Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, but also posed a serious challenge to the global security system.
If Russia is not stopped now, it will cause more crises in a few years.
Xinhua: China has always supported and encouraged all diplomatic efforts that are conducive to a peaceful resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, and advocates that all parties exercise restraint and avoid further deterioration of the situation and large-scale humanitarian crisis. China has actively promoted the peaceful resolution of the Ukrainian crisis on many occasions and provided Ukraine with several batches of emergency humanitarian assistance. How would you rate China's role in resolving the Ukrainian crisis?
Kuleba: I would like to express my gratitude to Minister Wang Yi for his remarks on supporting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity and his willingness to push for an armistice through diplomatic efforts. I also thank the Red Cross Society of China for providing humanitarian assistance worth 5 million yuan, and the Chinese government for expressing its willingness to continue to provide assistance. We really need this help very much. I take this opportunity to ask China to continue to provide support.
I would also like to express my gratitude to the Chinese side for taking the stance of avoiding further escalation of the situation. Ukraine never wanted war and wants it to end as soon as possible. Regrettably, we do not see any will from Russia to de-escalate the situation, which continues to bomb, shoot, kill civilians and destroy our peaceful towns and villages. Ukrainian fighters would never have done harm to Russian soldiers who had not brought the war to our soil.
The situation is not escalating because of Ukraine, we are exercising our right to defend ourselves.
We hope that China will call on Russia for a ceasefire from the standpoint that escalation must be avoided. This will be an important measure to maintain peace and prevent further humanitarian disasters…
Xinhua: What measures has the Ukrainian government taken to protect Ukrainian citizens and foreign citizens?
Kuleba: History proves that a tragic test will make Ukrainians stronger and bring us together. Russia's war on peaceful Ukraine not only unites Ukrainians at home, but also unites Ukrainians around the world to fight the enemy together.
…
During the course of the war, more than 4 million Ukrainians were forced to leave their homeland and seek refuge in European countries. The government is actively working with international partners to ensure that Ukrainian refugees have the conditions to stay abroad.
I would like to stress that the Ukrainian government is providing necessary assistance to both its own citizens and foreign citizens. We worked around the clock to keep in touch with the Chinese ambassador to Ukraine, trying to organize the evacuation of Chinese students from Kharkiv and Sumy to Lviv under constant shelling, from where they could return safely to China. Russian artillery shells and missiles do not distinguish nationality. We once again call on China to exert influence on Russia to immediately stop the war against Ukraine. This will allow us to stabilize the situation and focus on keeping our people safe, including our foreign friends.
Xinhua: The negotiations between Ukraine and Russia have attracted international attention. What were the main obstacles encountered during the negotiation process? How would you rate the prospect of a peace agreement between the two sides? What role should Ukraine play between Russia and the West in the future?
Kuleba: Yes, the negotiations between Ukraine and Russia on reaching a peace agreement are complicated. A few weeks ago, with Turkish mediation, delegations from both sides held a round of face-to-face talks in Istanbul. Among them, the Ukrainian delegation proposed a draft agreement on international security guarantees in Ukraine. The Russian side accepted these proposals and studied them. Regrettably, the negotiation process has since been significantly complicated.
When it comes to the future of Ukraine, we have always been clear on this issue. Ukraine belongs to the European family, but also enjoys good relations of mutual respect with China and other Asian countries. Ukrainians did not become Europeans today, and our history strongly bears witness to this: Ukraine has been an integral part of European civilization for centuries, playing an important role in its formation and development, ensuring the stability of Europe and regional security. I believe we will continue to play that role.
Comment: Xinhua asked 4 questions to both Lavrov and Kuleba. Oddly, Xinhua reported that the interview with Kuleba started at “09:02:55” – or 2 minutes and 55 seconds late (Lavrov’s began at “08:00:17”). Is Xinhua implying that it kept Kuleba waiting for nearly three minutes? Alternatively, the diplomat may have simply experienced technical difficulties.
v/r,
Joe Webster
The China-Russia Report is an independent, nonpartisan newsletter covering political, economic, and security affairs within and between China and Russia. All articles, comments, op-eds, etc represent only the personal opinion of the author(s) and do not necessarily represent the position(s) of The China-Russia Report.